Episode 36: My Sister is a Sexually Liberated Woman


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EW: [00:01:34] Hey everyone! I’m Ev’Yan Whitney and this is The Sexually Liberated Woman. Today’s episode is really really special because it features a really vulnerable and healing conversation about sex with my sister. But before I get into that, you know what time it is. It’s time to give some shout outs.

EW: [00:02:02] Every episode, I like to take a moment to give some shine to everyone who is a new patron. People who are giving this podcast literal life with their precious coins via Patreon. The Sexually Liberated Woman got a lot of love this week, and I’m really excited to shout out all of these names. OK. Shout out to Aryana C, Jessie H, Hannah W, Aaron H, and Shantell B for becoming brand new patrons of The Sexually Liberated Woman. Y’all are amazing. Thank you so much. I couldn’t do this without you.

EW: [00:02:44] And if you want to support The Sexually Liberated Woman, you should become a patron. By becoming a patron, you help cover the costs of operating the show, and in exchange you’ll join my community of rad, sex-positive folks who are on this journey of sexual liberation just like you are. You’re welcome to chip in as little per month as a dollar, but if you donate 5 dollars a month or more you’ll get some special perks like 15 percent off all of my past and future courses, and exclusive sneak previews of upcoming episodes. So if you’re loving The Sexually Liberated Woman go to patreon.com/SLWpodcast and become a patron.

EW: [00:03:32] The first thing that comes to mind when I think about my sister Jarani is a memory I have of watching her do somersaults on the balancing beam. From the time she was 3 years old, my sister was a gymnast and I would often go to her practices. Any time she was on the balancing beam, I remember watching in awe. To see this tiny little girl with skinny arms and legs literally defy gravity as she flipped around on a four-inch wide piece of wood four feet high off the ground, was incredible to me. In those moments even though she was my little sister I wanted to be her when I grew up.

EW: [00:04:15] My sister and I were very close. We’re less than two years apart from each other so being so close in age made us pretty much inseparable. We did everything together. She was my playmate, my secret keeper, my best friend, and when we were homeschooled she was even my classmate. But as we grew older, that’s when I feel like our paths began to diverge. I started to get really boy crazy, Jarani seemed totally disinterested in boys or dating. I began exploring sex and my sexuality, Jarani was more of a late bloomer. And these seeming differences went on to shape even the interactions we both had with our parents. She was the good girl, I was the bad girl. So for the longest time, pretty much up until this recent conversation you’re about to listen to, I thought our understandings and experiences of sex were vastly different from each other.

EW: [00:05:16] But after our conversation, I learned some things that made me realize in this really beautiful way that our stories were very very similar. And as I relistened to this conversation, I couldn’t help but wonder what would have happened if that good girl, bad girl trope hadn’t been placed on us. If we would have come together and supported each other through what we were going through at the time. Because yeah if I’m honest, years of being put in that box of bad promiscuous girl deeply affected my ability to be close to my sister. Especially as we got older. So this conversation with her was really healing in that regard. And I’m so grateful that she was willing to be so vulnerable and speak so openly about sex with me.

EW: [00:06:06] In addition to walking down memory lane, we got into what my sister’s sex life is like today. Especially as someone who experiences chronic pain thanks to some pretty serious injuries she sustained during her gymnastics career. We also talked a little bit about how she and I use weed to help connect us back into our bodies during sex when our minds won’t stop thinking. Because, fun fact, my sister manages a recreational cannabis dispensary here in Oregon. And yes we will definitely have an entire episode dedicated to sex and cannabis in the future. But for now, I invite you to sit back and enjoy this really candid, and kind of hilarious, and also a little awkward conversation I had with my sister Jarani. Enjoy.


EW: [00:07:11] So I’m here with my sister. And we’re going to talk about sex. How do you feel?

Jarani X: [00:07:21] I’m excited.

EW: [00:07:22] Yeah?

J: [00:07:22] And nervous. And excited.

EW: [00:07:25] So kind of in the same vein that I had an interview with our mother, I want to ask you questions about I guess kind of your origin story of how you became a sexual person. And then I also want to talk about like who you are today like as a sexual person. So what was your first memory of like an understanding of what sex was?

J: [00:07:57] Yeah I think, having reflected on that a bit over the past few days, I came to the realization that my first awareness of it was more so a warning, and that warning was essentially because of our grandfather having molested our aunts.

J: [00:08:19] And I remember, not in specific detail because I was really small at the time, but—.

EW: [00:08:25] Yeah do you remember how old you were?

J: [00:08:28] I’m guessing maybe four or something. I just recall like having a conversation with Daddy where he’s like trying to say in so many words, be careful, watch yourself, like watch your private area. Like the way the verbiage was and everything it very much was almost reminiscent of the conversation I had with him about like handling guns. Like it just felt like this is a very dangerous subject. And then I became aware that I was in possession of something that somebody else might want and I hadn’t realized that before. Especially not in that regard. Thinking of somebody like a family member and somebody that much older than all of us. So I felt like that was my first awareness. Like, oh people are sexual. But it was just, hey people are sexual, be careful.

EW: [00:09:23] Yeah like sex is dangerous.

J: [00:09:25] Yes.

EW: [00:09:26] Like your first, your first understanding of sex was not that like sex is pleasurable, or sex is a thing that two consenting adults do. It was like sex is dangerous.

J: [00:09:36] Yeah. Yeah. Like I had an awareness of how society viewed women and how a woman could be considered sexy. Again, not a full understanding of it necessarily. But it wasn’t until that dialogue that we started with our parents that I began to realize like, okay you’re warning me that if somebody approaches me and is trying to touch me in this area that I haven’t even really fully come to grips with yet, like that is an issue. And that is something that you need to watch out for. So that to me was my first introduction.

J: [00:10:09] I remember getting a talk maybe a year or so afterwards about the birds and the bees quote unquote. And I remember even just sitting down and thinking about it at the time that I wasn’t excited to hear any of it. I was just bummed. It was more of like, okay here are some more issues to deal with. Because then it was like, okay not only is this dangerous and you could be preyed upon, but also you can get pregnant. This is how babies are born. And for me it was like, what is the good in this?

EW: [00:10:37] Yeah.

J: [00:10:37] You know? I can’t fathom what this is. So you’re saying I might have dirty old men seeking me out for this and then on the flip side it makes children.

EW: [00:10:47] Yeah.

J: [00:10:48] There was no appeal for me.

EW: [00:10:50] Do you remember the birds and the bees talk? Because my memory was that when I had my birds and bees talk, you had it. That’s what Mommy and Daddy told— or at least that’s what mommy told me. That like we kind of had the sex talk together. But I don’t remember you being there. So like, do you remember that?

J: [00:11:13] Yeah I have a very vivid memory of you and I playing outside. I want to say Amber was there. So I remember we were all outside. Our cousin was out there and at some point I got called into the house. And I wondered why because the tone of the way I was called into the house, I could tell it was as if something was wrong. So I kind of went in the house thinking, what did I do? I was just out here playing, you know. And then when I went inside just I could get this sense of like just uncomfortable energy. And then they’re just like, okay well this is— this is the time to have this talk. And I— if I recall correctly I think it was both Mommy and Daddy that had the talk with me and I’m fairly certain that that was had by myself. I don’t recall you being there.

EW: [00:11:58] It’s so interesting that that’s your memory because my memory of the sex talk was similar. Like yeah we were outside, I believe we were playing in the snow. You and I. And the backyard— like our parents bedroom overlooked the backyard. And I remember being so excited because I wanted to show Mommy and Daddy something. And so I walked up to the window and I peeked in and the blinds were open, and I could see Daddy on top of Mommy. And I was, and I said something like, “Hey look at this thing!” Like I don’t know maybe I was showing a snowball or something like that.

EW: [00:12:33] And I remember Daddy being like, “Get away from the window!” Like, go away go back to play. And I didn’t really know what was going on. I was just like, okay I obviously did something wrong. And then shortly after I was called inside. That’s how I remember it. And when I was talking to Mommy about this, she was like that didn’t happen at all. Like that never happened.

EW: [00:12:53] And so it’s really weird how like in both of our memories we were like minding our business, playing outside, and like out of nowhere… Like it wasn’t solicited. It’s not like you and I were sitting down asking like, “Mommy where do babies come from?”.

J: [00:13:06] Yeah, no.

EW: [00:13:07] Like we were just playing like kids and then we were brought inside, which is really interesting.

J: [00:13:11] Yeah I almost wonder if it was maybe even the same day. And it’s just that you were pulled in earlier and it could have even been because of what you had seen.

EW: [00:13:19] Yeah.

J: [00:13:19] And it was just kind of different dialogue. I specifically remember being told that you had already been talked to about it. And that you were older and that like because of that it was just maybe kind of a different conversation. Like you don’t, you know, you don’t— what do you know? I think was kind of like how it got started. And I was like, I don’t know anything.

EW: [00:13:39] Interesting.

J: [00:13:40] I know the backyard with toys in it like, what are you? Like I’m busy right now what do you— what do you mean?

EW: [00:13:44] We were just playing, like what are you talking about?

J: [00:13:47] Yeah straight up. But I feel like something had to have triggered that conversation. So to me that doesn’t sound farfetched.

EW: [00:13:54] Yeah.

J: [00:13:54] That that triggered the initial conversation and then I got the secondary bit of it.

EW: [00:13:58] Yeah I’m wondering if we had the talk at the same time on the same day.

J: [00:14:03] I don’t know I just don’t remember.

EW: [00:14:03] Because it’s just, it’s bizarre how that happened. And I don’t ever recall you and I sitting down and me sharing information with you. Do you remember that?

J: [00:14:11] Yeah that’s true. No.

EW: [00:14:11] Like I don’t ever remember being like, hey that was so weird. I just got called inside. Or even if it didn’t happen on the same day like it’s bizarre that I, I don’t ever recall like having a conversation with you about like, I— because there were books involved. Like Mommy showed, Mommy and Daddy showed me books.

J: [00:14:30] Yes. Yeah I kind of remember the book too. Like I remember there was this image of like a woman with her legs spread. And I remember just thinking, oh my gosh, what? And then at the time too I was like, there’s so much hair! And then the—.

EW: [00:14:46] Yes! Because like the 90s, right? And like the bush was like alive and present. Yeah.

J: [00:14:53] Yeah I don’t think I was like aware of like pubic hair and all of that. And then there was like further chapters of course about like birth and like seeing a baby come through. And all of that was just like just visually like alarming to me. I’m like this all looks troublesome and painful and kind of gross. Especially seeing like the male anatomy at the time I was like, um okay? Like why do people do this again? Like again it was kind of one more thing compounded where I was like, okay you can potentially be preyed on, you can potentially get pregnant, and this just seems kind of gross.

J: [00:15:26] Like but again it’s from just a perspective of being so young that you don’t understand. But at the same time I still feel like that mindset shaped the rest of my years. It still was what my foundation was built on. So as much as I know better, that’s still my foundation. That’s still how I got started.

EW: [00:15:48] So I’m wondering like before you had like this, I don’t— I don’t think stranger danger is the right word for it but I’m going to use it anyway. But like the stranger danger around sex like, did you have any natural sexual feelings or urges? Or was your introduction into what sex was, was like the danger, the grossness, like…

J: [00:16:12] I remember, I do wish I remembered how old I was specifically because then that would at least form a timeline as to whether this happened before or after the talk. But I have a really weird and I guess really embarrassing memory of like touching myself when I was very little. And I remember we had the daycare kids at the house at the time and it was naptime and I remember not really being tired. And I put the blankets over my head and everyone was watching Captain Planet. I don’t know why this is so vivid but I just remember—.

EW: [00:16:49] Wow that is really—.

J: [00:16:49] Captain Planet was happening in the background and I was apparently not interested at the time.

EW: [00:16:55] Wow.

J: [00:16:56] And it was like, it really wasn’t that I had just like reached down there at all for like you know any specific purpose. But it was just that I think at the time I was seeking comfort and like just rest. I really wanted to sleep. And I remember like kind of just touching myself in a way that to me at the time was like, that just made me feel restful. Like I really, and again those memories are still very vague. Granted Captain Planet seems to be really vivid. But the rest of it was very vague. But I do remember being like, okay like this is something that I just did that kind of brought me comfort. But truth be told after that I don’t have any memories of things like that for years and years to come. It just seemed like to be a one-off if you will. That was kind of random I suppose.

EW: [00:17:50] So what did you think sex was?

J: [00:17:56] Even though I saw the images in books of a man and a woman’s anatomy, I saw them separately from one another. And then when you see a penis it’s likely flaccid. So as much as I was told—.

EW: [00:18:11] That’s really true.

J: [00:18:12] That penis is going into the vagina. It’s like, okay well I see the vagina but like I still don’t understand how, like.

EW: [00:18:20] That is so true.

J: [00:18:21] How does this thing go in there? I mean it just never really registered to me. So I think it took me quite a while to wrap my head around it. I’m really— it was not until, this is going to sound insane, but it was not until I was probably 18 that I first saw porn. And that was the first time I ever like had a visual image that like expressed what sex looked like.

EW: [00:18:55] Wow.

J: [00:18:55] I really still don’t think I had my head wrapped around it which is insane to think about.

EW: [00:19:00] Wow.

J: [00:19:00] But my friends kind of knew that about me and I was all at their house. They were just all kind of a vulgar little bunch if you will. And they just thought that it would be really funny to essentially cue up this video of this pornography and pause it, call me into the room, and unpause it right around the time there was the money shot.

EW: [00:19:23] So I don’t— I don’t want to interject but like it’s crazy to me. Like I, I’m hearing all of this for the first time. Like we’ve never really had a conversation about this before.

J: [00:19:33] Yeah.

EW: [00:19:33] But our stories are so similar.

J: [00:19:36] Weird.

EW: [00:19:37] Like I had the same exact experience. Like my first experience of porn wasn’t consensual. It wasn’t because I’m like, I’m going to go on the internet and I’m going to look at porn. It was like my friends, my guy friends being assholes, they call me into a room and they— there’s hardcore porn shown on the screen. It was like—.

J: [00:19:53] Yeah.

EW: [00:19:55] It wasn’t even, it didn’t even register to me in my mind that like, oh this is sex. It’s just— I’m just putting together the pieces and realizing that like, after all this time I’ve thought that our lives were so like opposite, but we were really parallel. It’s just bizarre.

J: [00:20:11] That’s bizarre. Yeah that is really bizarre.

EW: [00:20:11] That’s so bizarre.

J: [00:20:12] Yeah.

EW: [00:20:13] How old were you? You said you were 18 when it happened?

J: [00:20:14] I think so. Because my ex and I were still together at the time. We were living with our friends and yeah I believe we started dating around the time I was 18. So it was around that time.

EW: [00:20:25] So, and this is a personal question you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to, how old were you when you lost your virginity?

J: [00:20:32] I was 18.

EW: [00:20:33] Wow.

J: [00:20:35] And it was with John, my ex. Yeah. Yeah like those images for me, again it was something else where I was like, okay so now you’re saying again sex is gross. Especially the shot I got like the— it did nothing for me at all. And yeah that’s really how it got started for me. So for most of my years I felt like, why would I want to pursue this?

EW: [00:20:59] Yeah.

J: [00:21:00] It was really weird.

EW: [00:21:00] Yeah. What about like, I mean because we’re talking about you having sex with other people, but what about you having sex with yourself? Like did you have a sexual relationship with yourself at all?

J: [00:21:12] I didn’t really, no. Remember how I was talking about the whole Captain Planet scenario. So that is my last memory until I was about 15 I think. And I’m just going to say it. So Mommy had like a massager in her room.

EW: [00:21:30] Okay, so my theory is that that was a magic wand.

J: [00:21:35] OK.

EW: [00:21:35] Because it looked like a magic wand.

J: [00:21:37] It was wand shaped. Like it had like a flat edge to it. That was wand shaped.

EW: [00:21:42] It looked like a Hitachi Magic Wand.

J: [00:21:44] It kind of did and I remember—.

EW: [00:21:46] That shit was powerful.

J: [00:21:47] Yeah I remember having this moment where I was like, Don’t you dare do that Jarani. And then I was sterilizing the hell out of it. Like I got like alcohol, like I was like, okay. No one’s ever gonna know. Put it right back where you found it. But I kept hearing that like vibrators were a thing. And that it can make you feel really good.

EW: [00:22:03] Wait where were you hearing this? I never even got that message.

J: [00:22:06] I don’t even know I honestly feel like it was probably in like movies or something.

EW: [00:22:11] Wow okay.

J: [00:22:11] Like kind of hearsay where it’s like, okay why do we keep hearing that this is a thing? And the other times I’d ever thought to like explore, I really not— I’d never received pleasure from me trying to pleasure myself. So this was me just being like, screw it. Maybe this will work. I was honestly pretty frustrated at that point. Not really understanding what was going on with me because it seemed like other people, you know, at that age too a lot of guys were of course just talking about how they were masterbating all day long. Not very many females were so I think at that time I was like, okay I don’t know really what it’s supposed to look like for women versus men but I felt like there’s no way that my pleasure was as easily achieved as like a man’s would be.

J: [00:23:04] So at that time I remember trying it and being a little disappointed because while I felt good, it was also so intense that I was like, I can’t even really enjoy it. So it was just more of like a quick oh my gosh. Like that’s a sensation I’ve never felt before. And then I was kind of like, oh okay I’m putting this away. Like we’re not telling anybody about this. It was like a quick little splash into what that could be. And then you know probably after that tried a few more times to touch myself. And I still just never— I don’t think at the time I was comfortable enough in my own skin to be trying to bring myself pleasure like that. I just wasn’t there.

J: [00:23:46] And then paired with some physical factors that I think were coming up because of the injuries I previously sustained I came to realize that climaxing I don’t think seemed quote unquote normal. If there is— I don’t believe that there really is any normal climax. But It just never felt like I was reaching completion entirely or feeling a complete release. And so again I felt a little discouraged. I thought that it would be really empowering to have my own alone time like other people seem to be doing. But it just never really became that way for me. So sex with another partner was, and still kind of is mainly the like form of pleasure. It’s not always been about like self exploration unfortunately.

EW: [00:24:40] I guess the thing that I’m thinking of, because I’m just thinking about how big that gap was between watching Captain Planet and then being fifteen and like exploring vibration and sensation. I was like, why was there such a big gap? And then I realize you were in gymnastics.

J: [00:24:57] Yeah.

EW: [00:24:57] For like a really long time. Like didn’t they put you in gymnastics from like the time that you were three util—.

J: [00:25:02] Until technically eleven was when I was forced to quit because of that stress fracture on my low spine. And that was my entire life. I mean I was homeschooled not only because it was our mother’s, you know, choice and our preference, it was also because I literally did not have time to go to school. I did my homework in the car on the way to the gym. Period. You know, two hour drive each direction. So I really didn’t have time. And I didn’t have time to even be that boy crazy. I certainly had crushes on boys. I had this huge crush on this boy that was at the gym. So it was there but he was also years older than me. And I was too busy. I really didn’t have the time to think about it. And then once I quit gymnastics, that’s when I pretty much went into junior high and was almost forced into this world of being like, oh my gosh I’ve missed so much.

EW: [00:26:02] Yeah.

J: [00:26:03] And to me, it was playing catch up from there. I didn’t really want to portray how behind I felt I was. Pair that with the fact that once I was out of gymnastics, that freed up more time to go to church. And go to youth group. And immediately that began to shape what I thought about sexuality yet again. Because that’s the type of people I was trying to find out that information around.

EW: [00:26:29] What was your experience of being in the church and like understanding sexuality? Because like I had a really— I mean you know my experience.

J: [00:26:38] Yeah.

EW: [00:26:38] I think you witnessed a lot of what I went through. But like I don’t, because we were like two years younger we didn’t always hang out with the same people. And so I— I wasn’t even sure like what kinds of conversations were being had at that time. Just because I felt like you know maybe people who were older were having those conversations. So like, I don’t know, what’s your, what was that experience like for you?

J: [00:27:05] Yeah I think I felt, again, sex was demonized. It’s like, you don’t do this or you are going to go to hell. Like no premarital sex. Not only just premarital sex but a big thing that I recall from I guess like middle school days was this book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Do you remember that book?

EW: [00:27:29] Yes.

J: [00:27:29] Do you remember at least seeing it?

EW: [00:27:30] No. I do.

J: [00:27:30] Because it was definitely in our house because they handed out copies.

EW: [00:27:35] So I remember, didn’t Danielle’s mom give you a copy of that book?

J: [00:27:40] No.

EW: [00:27:41] Okay.

J: [00:27:41] But Danielle and I were both in what’s called Chosen. It was like this girl’s like bible study group.

EW: [00:27:49] Oh I remember Chosen.

J: [00:27:50] We’d do retreats and all of this. And as a gift, they gave us that book.

EW: [00:27:56] Okay so remind me what I Kissed Dating Goodbye— I remember the cover, but I never read the book.

J: [00:28:02] Okay. Yeah.

EW: [00:28:02] And I remember having these conversations with Mommy and Daddy about how like you were reading this book, and you were on the straight and narrow. And there were a lot of like comparisons in terms of like, your sister is choosing this path of like purity and virginity and you should read this book that she’s reading. But I never read it because I think by then it was already too far gone. I was already a sexual heathen. But like what, what was that book? Like remind me what that was.

J: [00:28:28] Yeah. So it basically was saying like, hey kids, you know how you’ve been talking so much about not having premarital sex? Just scrap that. Like we’re going to add on to that. So don’t kiss, maybe don’t even hold hands, before you get married.

EW: [00:28:46] Wow.

J: [00:28:46] Because this is all so special. Not, not just the sex but just any sort of physical interaction. A kiss, a holding hands, that’s intimacy. And we need to think about who we’re being intimate with and why. Maybe it’s holding hands now, but maybe next week it will be kissing and maybe the next week it’ll be making out and then maybe the next week you’ll be having sex. And I think we should all stop and really think about whether kissing and holding hands even has a place in dating.

EW: [00:29:18] So this was based on like someone else’s story?

J: [00:29:21] Yes. Yeah. If I remember correctly, the person who wrote this book was the person who had not, who had chosen to not kiss their fiancé—.

EW: [00:29:32] So they didn’t hold hands?

J: [00:29:32] Maybe held hands, but definitely did not—.

EW: [00:29:33] They probably did like, the grandpa—

J: [00:29:36] Yeah. Exactly.

EW: [00:29:38] The hands clasped.

J: [00:29:38] Do not, do not— watch the fingers.

EW: [00:29:39] No interlacing the fingers.

J: [00:29:40] Yes. Yes.

EW: [00:29:42] Those are the devil’s playground.

J: [00:29:43] Exactly.

EW: [00:29:44] Wow.

J: [00:29:45] But what was odd, was I thought that book was a crock of shit. I thought it was—.

EW: [00:29:51] Really?

J: [00:29:51] I thought it was an absolute crock of shit. But—.

EW: [00:29:53] That is so funny.

J: [00:29:54] The thing at the time was that I was also not interested in dating. So I think there was this perception from our parents that was like, oh well Jarani’s fine we don’t have to worry about her, blah blah blah. And no technically they didn’t. But it was literally because it just was not in my mind. So I think I was kind of in a safe boat according to our parents because they’re like, we don’t have to worry about her.

EW: [00:30:16] Right.

J: [00:30:16] I mean most of my friends were also guys. And I was just one of the guys to them. So to me the way I viewed guys and being alone with them a lot of times, it was very much platonic. So that was kind of my reality to the world too. It was like, no I can just be platonic. I can be friends with these guys. And for that dating got pushed aside a lot for me. It was not high on my list of priorities at all it seemed.

EW: [00:30:47] I feel like around this time was when I was going through a whole bunch of shit with like my own dating. I’m sure I was with my ex boyfriend at the time. And I remember my ex, we were talking about you and how like you just seemed so like virginal and pure but also not interested in having sex. And he was like, are you— do you think your sister is a lesbian?

J: [00:31:11] Yeah, do you remember that our mother thought that? She approached me about it too.

EW: [00:31:17] What?

J: [00:31:17] Oh yeah. Yeah.

EW: [00:31:19] Okay so I remember like having conversations with him about it but I didn’t know that that— So what the fuck? What was that conversation like?

J: [00:31:28] Oh yeah, totally. It hit a point, I want to say maybe I was like 14 or 15 or something. And in so many words, Mommy was kind of like, like you have a lot of guy friends and you don’t really seem to be like trying to date anybody. Like I don’t know, like do you, do you like guys? Like, you know? Like it was, it was kind of like light and kind of like blurted out and it wasn’t accusational. It just kind of felt like, like hey I’m expecting to kind of see something in you and it’s not really happening. Like what are you actually even in to? And I just remember kind of laughing but also thinking that I wasn’t surprised. Not because, not because of any particular way that I felt but just because I knew that in comparison to all of my peers I seem to be the least interested in dating.

EW: [00:32:23] Yeah.

J: [00:32:23] I just wasn’t there. And I think definitely part of it, as I said, was just five days a week, four hours a day, private lessons, competitions on the weekend, training after gymnastics, like my entire life was gymnastics. And I think that overshadowed a lot of even just like natural desires. Like I learned to stifle all those things because it didn’t matter. I had other goals. My goal was to become an Olympian. That was all I wanted until I was 11.

J: [00:32:57] And I probably still didn’t drop it officially until I was 13 and tried to be like everybody else. Be a normal kid, stop wearing my hair in a bun all the time, stop wearing warm ups all the time. Stop wearing a leotard under my clothes all the time.

EW: [00:33:11] Yeah.

J: [00:33:12] So I think in a lot of senses I was naturally a late bloomer. But also around the time I was kind of blooming I still didn’t give a shit. I just wasn’t there. So it’s a really weird history because even still, perhaps I’m like answering a question you might have asked in the future, but I’ve only been with two people. I’ve only had sex with two people. Like actual sexual intercourse.

EW: [00:33:39] Oh my god again, we’re like— wow. We’re like very similar.

J: [00:33:40] The second person being my husband.

EW: [00:33:44] Yeah.

J: [00:33:44] So essentially one other person, you know.

EW: [00:33:47] Yeah.

J: [00:33:47] And I think even still I could have been the type of person to probably just not bother dating very much. Had I not had these really strong feelings, I could not, as much as I willed myself to pull away from— I could not like will myself away from the feelings I had for my ex. And of course same for my husband. I just couldn’t. So it was one time where I was like, alright girl you’re you’re doing this. Like take the plunge. But a lot of it was fear based, definitely. Fear of not only sex but also relationships.

EW: [00:34:19] I also wonder too if like watching the way that our parents so deeply were like hard on me about my own sexual curiosity is like— I guess my question is like how did witnessing the way that our parents were so hard on me, like did that influence you at all?

J: [00:34:42] Oh absolutely.

EW: [00:34:44] Okay.

J: [00:34:44] To me it was one big giant lesson in things you don’t do. Just don’t do this. Don’t be sexy. Don’t wear this outfit. Don’t indicate that you want to spend time with boys. Like don’t say that you’ve made out with anybody. Don’t touch their parts. Don’t let them touch your parts. Like just do none of those things and you’ll have a quiet life. And at a certain point too even if I had desires, I was more apt to just bury them because I wanted to fly under the radar. I never wanted to experience shame the way that I felt that you had. And that’s really unfortunate but it definitely was again another warning sign to me like, wow sex literally only causes people grief. Like I think a question that I recently tried to ask myself was like, what was the most positive thing you thought about sex from when you were younger than 18 years old?

EW: [00:35:45] Yeah.

J: [00:35:46] I can’t really think of any.

EW: [00:35:48] That is so wild.

J: [00:35:48] Like I can think of maybe certain thoughts that I had about it that I kind of still talked myself out of and be like, no well from what you’ve seen historically speaking this does not bode well for people. Like when you start dabbling in this, you raise attention. And you know your parents are obviously going to make your life miserable about it. Is it honestly worth it? So a lot of it for me was just not worth it. Talk yourself out of it. Is anybody in your life right now worth the, I don’t know if I would say ridicule but just about, that you could get from admitting that you enjoy sex or sensuality. It’s just to me it was just bury it, bury it, bury it.

EW: [00:36:36] Yeah.

J: [00:36:36] And you’ll do just fine. Like pretend that it doesn’t exist. You’ll do just fine. So I think I was kind of killing time in a sense until I got older. Until I moved out of the house even. I felt like once my ex and I started dating, around that time was I think one of the first times where I was like, I don’t care. You can’t say shit to me about what I do. Mommy was gone and Daddy had just come back. And to me like he relinquished his rights to being like the man of the house.

EW: [00:37:04] And to be a parent, yeah.

J: [00:37:06] Yeah. To me— yeah I was like, you you can’t tell me shit. I don’t care. So at that point I lost my virginity in our— in the house that we grew up in. When— technically in your old bedroom I think at the time.

EW: [00:37:22] What!

J: [00:37:22] So I christened your room and—.

EW: [00:37:25] I had no idea.

J: [00:37:27] Well that’s where I was residing though when that whole move happened. Like I was—.

EW: [00:37:30] But I didn’t even know that you had sex in—.

J: [00:37:33] In the house?

EW: [00:37:34] Yeah I didn’t.

J: [00:37:34] Yeah. Mhm.

EW: [00:37:35] That’s hilarious.

J: [00:37:36] Yeah that is where I— when it first happened. Yeah I thought that it was kind of funny and it honestly felt really good too to be like haha. In the end I ended up having sex in this house under this roof. Fabulous. And honestly from there I felt really fucking free. Like that was the first time where I just like wanted to like rip my shirt off and like, “Ah I did it! No one can tell me anything! Sex is awesome!”

EW: [00:38:06] Yeah how was that for you? Like—.

J: [00:38:07] I feel like so many people had told me their stories about how sex was for them the first time that I was really nervous. And in the end I feel like I had one of the better if not best stories, or experiences rather, just from a fact where it was completely consensual, we could take our time with it, I was genuinely excited. I was still kind of nervous but like he was so communicative, so gentle, so— like I remember even just the moment before he was like, are you certain? Like looked deeply into my eyes and was like, are you certain about this? And I was like, yes! It just I honestly felt so comfortable and so safe. We had talked so much about this that it was honestly just really exciting because too, I was genuinely excited. And nothing was holding me back in that anymore. I didn’t feel any guilt about it. I just felt love for this person that I wanted to fully express.

J: [00:39:06] And so, I got lucky too I felt like it wasn’t painful. I literally just had fun my first time.

EW: [00:39:13] That’s amazing.

J: [00:39:13] And after that I was like, can we have sex like three more times? Like can we do this? And he’s like, honey it doesn’t work that way. Like I can’t just get like a boner again like magically. But literally I was still learning about sex while having it. Like that was— I had no idea. Like I don’t know, I thought you could just keep getting a boner. Just get another one really quick. But yeah I was very fortunate to have had a really wonderful first time. And because of that after, probably the next day, I wrote our mom an email. Because I wanted to tell her. Because I also felt like too what happened to you when they found out that you were sexually active was just a shit show. It was a storm. And I wanted to take control of the dialogue surrounding me.

J: [00:40:04] Granted too I was at an older age where it was almost none of their business in a sense, you know. But I still wanted to honor our mother and be like, hey this happened. And I’m honestly so excited about it. And I’m really confused because I spent my whole life thinking that this was a terrible, or potentially terrible, thing and instead it’s so beautiful. I wish I would have known this. It would have changed everything for me. Truly. So again I feel fortunate that at least that experience was so profoundly positive that it did kind of wipe some of that former slate clean. Some of the things that I had learned. I suddenly was like, okay that’s not actually true. But again I lost a lot of time in those years. And I was just very lucky that this person I happened to be with who was my first made it really really awesome. So no no bad memories. All just really really positive ones that made me really excited to be like, wow this is something to celebrate. Like this is great.

EW: [00:41:07] That’s amazing.

J: [00:41:07] I wanted to like call my girlfriends and be like, tell me more. Like what else should I know? Like what do— what should I know? But yeah it was, it was all really really good from from there.


EW: [00:41:38] The Sexually Liberated Woman celebrates sexual liberation. And since you’re listening to this podcast I think it’s pretty safe for me to assume that you’re already about that life. Maybe you’re already on your sexual liberation journey and you’re in this process of fully exploring your erotic self. Or maybe you’re one of the many many people out there who isn’t at all comfortable with their sexuality. If so, I have some things that might help. When I’m not doing this podcast, I teach classes and facilitate healing that helps women and femmes liberate and connect to their sexuality. And I’ve created some awesome resources to help them on their journey.

EW: [00:42:21] There’s a sensuality course that guides you into reconnecting with your sensual body one day at a time. There’s a digital workshop I lead that teaches you how to use sensual selfies as a way to heal and celebrate your sexuality. There’s also my sexual liberation and healing practice, where I help you step out of shame and into erotic empowerment via one on one mentoring, counseling, space holding and fierce accountability.

So if you want to be sexually free, go to evyanwhitney.com/shop and start your sexual liberation journey.

I absolutely cannot wait to witness your blossoming and I’ll see you there.


EW: [00:43:09] So I guess like, how is sex for you now? Because you know you mentioned having multiple injuries and gymnastics and I know that chronic pain is something that you’ve been going through like since then, right? So like what is sex like for you these days? Particularly with chronic pain.

J: [00:43:51] My experience with chronic pain, I mean chronic pain has truly been with me as long as I’ve existed on this earth. And I’ve had to come to terms with that. I for a while thought that it was just something that kind of came up later in life, but when I really think about it, it’s always been there. I mean I think I was maybe 3 or so when I woke up screaming in the middle of the night and it took both of our parents to try to put my leg back into place. I still don’t understand like what is that?

J: [00:44:19] It was always present, always with me so for that, I’ve not had any sex life without that. And it’s taken me over the past few years to kind of stop and really think about things. Think about my body’s response to sex and ask myself is it, is it a healthy response? Again a healthy physical response. And what I’ve found is that my chronic pain has extended into my sex life. Not just because my neck, my shoulders, my lower back, all these things are hurting, but I’m realizing just how many of these injuries have also affected my pelvis. Like my my my pelvis is pretty tilted forward, my left leg is tilted severely inward, and it took me a while— a long while to actually come to terms with the fact that like, hey that’s probably messing with you a little bit.

J: [00:45:18] So the past year has been really bizarre in the sense where I’ve taken time to instead of just like using my vibrator for pleasure, I’m also using it to map out what goes on in my body while I’m climaxing, while I’m experiencing stimulation. And unfortunately I’m coming up with a lot of things that aren’t too great. Things that I can kind of sense my body fighting against. And at least now that I’m aware of it I can try to at least either remedy it or make peace with it. But it has been a little discouraging. Like I mentioned at least a little briefly before, I had come to terms with the fact that while I do feel like I do reach orgasm, there’s something that always makes me feel like I’m not done. Always. It’s like I’m just still clinging to like, okay where is that last release?

J: [00:46:15] And that’s impacted me a lot. I think mainly too because after sex I still want more. And while a lot of people can be like, that’s great, that sounds like fun. Sometimes it’s not. Sometimes I like want to just pass out and be like, oh I’m so satisfied oh my god. And I am completely satisfied. But it’s like, it almost feels as if I just had five seconds more I’d be there. But there’s no such thing. I’ve tried five seconds. I’ve tried 30 seconds. I’ve tried hours. And so for that I’ve been having to really try to summon up some like self—love positivity and patience and understanding with my body. And coming to terms with the fact that I don’t think a lot of what I experience is normal. And a lot of times just feeling the emotional and physical impact of chronic pain on a daily basis in the first place, does not exactly make you feel remotely sexy.

J: [00:47:12] And there are times where it’s like, hey this might be a good day, even though you don’t feel sexy at all, this might be a day to try to push through that and try to reach a point where you do feel sexy and you can still celebrate yourself. But I would still say most days due to the way my body feels physically, the way I feel like I look it’s almost like I feel that the way I look is the way my insides feel. And that’s not true. But because of that I feel sometimes like a monster. And it doesn’t literally mean that at the sight of my reflection I feel like a monster, but as I’m talking to you right now I’m not looking in the mirror I can’t see myself. With the pain in my body, I just feel gross. There’s nothing that feels attractive about being me. And there are some times where I do look in the mirror and I’m like, oh my gosh you look normal. I almost forget that my reflection doesn’t always betray the way I feel inside.

EW: [00:48:06] So it sounds like your chronic pain has like, has given you like body dysmorphia.

J: [00:48:14] A bit. Yeah a bit. That’s a realization, again, over the past couple of years I’ve come to figure out and try to address. At least I’m very aware that there is definitely a disconnect between how I feel and how I actually look. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that on a daily basis, I’m able to overcome that. Even though I’m aware of it. So it has done a number on me and I think it can be really challenging. It’s such a blessing, but it’s so challenging to have a husband who views you as just this beautiful human. This like beautiful sexual creature who like, he’ll get aroused if I like touch his leg or like look at him the wrong way. And you’re like, oh my god I’m flattered.

J: [00:48:57] But also what the hell. Because I literally don’t feel like that at all. Like it sometimes feels like kind of like, are you serious? Like I feel like garbage, how can you even find value in me and the way that I feel right now? So it definitely has been a challenge. I feel like my husband is really patient with me and is really comforting, understanding. But for the most part that has been something that I’ve had to try to overcome every single time. And I think feeling that way, feeling the pain, and then some of those issues that are just further in my past, almost every time I have or I’m about to have sex, I get nervous. Like it’s like the first time kind of. And I start to feel awkward and unsure and thinking, is this even going to be fun? What am I doing? Maybe I just shouldn’t. Screw it. And then as soon as it starts happening, I’m like this is amazing! I should do this all the time.

J: [00:49:55] But I— it— it, you know, deserves to be said that it takes a lot of emotional like self-encouragement to will myself into that state of mind where it’s like, yeah I am sexy. And you’re sexy. And I want to celebrate this and have this really great moment. A lot of the times it’s like, I have to battle— win a battle over my demons before I get to actually play and have fun. So it’s like this kind of grappling sensation of being like, man this should be really light hearted. And instead I’m approaching it sometimes with like this sense of like doom.

EW: [00:50:33] Yeah. Does weed help? I mean I know you work in cannabis so I just wonder if like, if you have found that weed helps you get into your body and silence some of those inner demons for you.

J: [00:50:44] Yeah it can. Now, smoking cannabis can be hit or miss. Just being that there’s so many different strains and so many types of strains that can affect your body and mind in a myriad of ways. Some making you more subdued. Worst case scenario making you subdued. Worst case scenario making you anxious, let’s say. Granted, at it’s best you can lose your inhibitions. Just be very bubbly carefree relax. And that goes miles.

J: [00:51:13] But over the past few years I think— rather if you probably spoke to me like seven, eight years ago, I probably would have said that smoking cannabis just made sex like so much more rich, exciting. You’re locked in this present moment. It’s just ground shaking. And granted it still is. But as of the past few years, something that’s come to prominence for me is actually like cannabis-infused lubricant. Because there are days where I’m not feeling it. I’m really not. And I’m trying to push through and be like, in the end, every time you’ve had sex in the end you’re like, this is so amazing. Why don’t you do this all the time. And so I have to remember that and be like, this is a tool that you can help utilize— that you can utilize to help you quickly remind yourself, like no this is pleasurable. Because there are some times where I’m so nervous, I’m so in my head, but the cannabis-infused lubricant increases stimulation. It increases blood flow. And so automatically you start getting these like heightened sensations. And then to me it just allows you to kind of be swept up in that.

J: [00:52:23] And it’s been really powerful for me because of that. Especially if you have any trouble just feeling like you can get wet. Like I feel like that lubricant is huge. Plus it can also put you in the same timeline as your partner, really giving you like a simultaneous climax. Like at the same time. Which I think is really powerful, really exciting. So I’ve been able to use it— use cannabis to aid that certainly. And of course ingesting CBD can do wonders being that it’s great for pain reliever. It diminishes anxiety, depression so it can really just turn around your mindset in order to make things more pleasurable. And in my own words I guess just get out of your own way. Because I feel like I, and other people, can easily do that. You just get so caught up in your own head that you just can’t be present. So I like using those tools for that.

EW: [00:53:18] It’s so funny that you’re even talking about this because literally last night that was happening with me. Like Jonathan and I have been working a lot and sex hasn’t been on the forefront. Because he’s working, I’m working, he’s out of town, I’m out of town, and so sometimes it’s like ships passing in the night. Sometimes it’s like, I’m exhausted because I have been like working all day long. And so we haven’t been having sex. And so he came back from a pretty long trip and it was so exciting. And we had amazing sex the first night. And then the second night, I could tell that he was wanting to do it again, you know. And I feel the same thing. I think— this actually isn’t something I talk about a lot, but I am, I can get so much in my head about sex. Very similar to what you’re describing of like getting nervous, feeling anxious. I also feel like there’s like, there’s this habit that I’ve learned after being told for so many years that sex is not something that you should do, that like it’s instinctual in my body to deny sex. Like if I feel myself being like, oh this is coming like I’m getting into the area of what I want. And then he starts coming on to me and we start meeting each other there, I back off.

EW: [00:54:40] And for the longest time I thought that that was me just being a cocktease. These days I’m I’m trying to reclaim that and see it as being a bratty bottom. So like that’s something that I’m trying to transform that energy into because I do think that it can be a really great form of like play between me and my partner. But most of the time, that instinct, that impulse, that habit to be like, nope! Is like so present that even if he is touching me in the right way— I mean actually what was keeping me from being able to access sex last night was I was thinking about this interview.

J: [00:55:20] Oh my gosh.

EW: [00:55:21] And it wasn’t that I was stressing about it.

J: [00:55:22] Right.

EW: [00:55:22] It wasn’t that I was anxious about it. It was just like my brain was putting bits and pieces together of like, I need to make sure the mic is set up, where are we going to do it, how like, what tutorials am I going to—. Like my brain was going like a mile a minute, right? And so usually when that happens, I— what I do is I just say like, sorry honey I’m just not in it. Like I don’t feel sexy. And that’s one of the things I said to him last night was like, I’m not in a sexy mood. Like I just don’t feel like it. I literally feel just completely like desexualized.

J: [00:55:54] Yeah.

EW: [00:55:55] And we had this really interesting moment where— and he wasn’t judging me, he wasn’t like you know placing any pressure on me, but he did say like, I love you and I want us to have more sex. And I agreed with him. I was like, actually I want to have more sex too. And then I had this moment of being like, I don’t really like that I have this instinct, this habit of like cock blocking my own self. Or like, I mean sometimes it’s that and then sometimes my brain just won’t shut the fuck up.

J: [00:56:23] Yes. Yeah.

EW: [00:56:24] And so I was so frustrated and then I knew that he was going to be going out of town again and I was like, holy shit—.

J: [00:56:30] So there’s pressure.

EW: [00:56:30] We’re not going to be having sex probably again for another week. And like, sex is really important to me. It’s something that I want to do. Long story short, I ended up smoking some pot. Which like I haven’t really talked about all that much, and it’s still something that I’m like dipping a toe in because weed like makes me really anxious and I’ve had like bad experiences before. But it was, it was an amazing way for me to— and I didn’t get so stoned that I was like high off my ass, but it was enough to take the edge off where I could just be like in the present moment with my partner and have this really beautiful moment of like my desires are matching what my body is able to like show up for. Because my head isn’t in the way telling me like, no but we need to think about this podcast. We need to think about all the work that you have to do in the next morning. So I don’t know. I just thought it was really interesting that you’re talking about that because that’s definitely something that I struggle with.

J: [00:57:24] Yeah that’s huge. That totally sounds like me. It’s like I take this time before things happen— I mean, I get some of my best thinking done about like what bullshit to put on my grocery list, like right before we’re trying to have sex. It’s like my mind is trying to grip on to reality and is like, don’t do this is, this is extracurricular.

EW: [00:57:45] Right.

J: [00:57:46] You need to. You need to buy this at the store, you need to do this. Hey did Oly remember to do blah blah blah and it’s like, that’s not where you should be at right now. Why are you trying to grapple with anything but this present moment? And again I do agree. I think it’s again what I talked about very early on, the foundation that all of this was built on. As much work as we can all do to overcome that, when your roots were still like, you know, rooted in shame about it—.

EW: [00:58:17] Right.

J: [00:58:17] You’re going to still battle feelings of shame about it. Even while you’re experiencing pleasure. And it does feel like that’s something I will probably always experience. Because so far I’ve not been able to overcome it. And to have such an amazing and supportive partner, I literally could not ask for anything more, so to me it just seems very much an indicator of just, this was your past. This is how this story began for you.

EW: [00:58:45] Yeah.

J: [00:58:45] Where you just kind of rather be somewhat outside of the moment and then it takes this mental gymnastics for me to stop, get out of my way and get into the present moment. And drown everything out and then I’m like, okay alright I’m here.

EW: [00:58:59] Right.

J: [00:59:00] And then it’s great. But it’s— it’s, again, it can take some work.

EW: [00:59:03] It takes a lot of work and it’s also just really difficult to do. I mean it’s like, I mean there are sometimes when I can do it when I can like— this is going to sound ridiculous, but like think my way out of thinking.

J: [00:59:16] Yeah.

EW: [00:59:17] Sometimes it works. Very rarely it works. Most of the time though, it doesn’t. And it’s so interesting. Like I’ve always felt this— well, I don’t want to say always because when I was like 15 and 16 I was having rambunctious amounts of sex and I wasn’t thinking in that way. But I feel like, yeah it’s— I think that this is going to be with me for the longest time and I always thought that it was just like, I’m a worrier. I’m an anxious person. This is what it’s like for me to experience and have sex. Like that’s just what it is. But now I’m realizing like maybe it’s it’s not that simple. Like maybe it’s a little bit more complex with the idea of like the reason why I have this habit of stopping myself and stopping my desires and even stopping my partner, stems from sexual trauma. It stems from being told over and over that don’t have sex. Don’t have sex. Sex is wrong. Sex is dangerous. Sex is sinful. And then also like pair that with like having anxiety. Or like having a really full day. Like all of those things combined makes for a really fucked up experience. And like I’ve done the best that I can to show up and be present as much as possible but like, it’s really hard to get out of your own head sometimes.

J: [01:00:32] Yeah, very much so. That’s why I think especially when it comes to cannabis, it’s something to use very mindfully and educate yourself on what you’re about to consume. Because it can completely have the opposite effect. It can completely like, it can get you further trapped in your head. And so for that it’s been a tool. Being in the industry and knowing what I do know about all of these different strains and genetics, I at least have an awareness of what would suit me better than some other things. But it’s definitely something to learn about before you start adopting that into your sex life. And it’s something to explore with and be excited about. But it can certainly backfire at times too if you’re not cautious about what you’re getting into.

EW: [01:01:19] I definitely want to have a conversation with you about like sex and cannabis.

J: [01:01:24] That could be sweet.

EW: [01:01:25] Because I have a feeling I’m gonna get a whole bunch of questions from people who are like, does your sister know what strain I can use for this? I’m like, I mean we could talk about this for hours and hours.

J: [01:01:35] That is awesome. That would be really exciting though too because I’m known for, like at my job when people come in asking about the products that we offer that are more sensual, pretty much everyone points to me. Because I’m the only person that’s not like (whispers) “Um, so like you can— come closer, so like you can put this on your…” Like I’m pretty like forward about it. But still I think, I don’t know it’s just something that I’m excited about and I feel like is really empowering and something that’s made such an impact for my own sex life that I very much feel comfortable talking about it. Because I feel like it’s made, yeah it’s just made a huge impact on me. I think it’s been incredibly positive for getting out of my own way a lot of the time too so.

EW: [01:02:25] So what’s sex like for you these days?

J: [01:02:33] It’s been a really tumultuous couple years for me for a few reasons. One mainly being health reasons. The other, this past year we had roommates staying with us. So it was this new thing again where it’s like we’re— I mean we’re used to just having our aloneness in our home. Or if we’re feeling feisty, then cool like we’re in the kitchen, our clothes are on the kitchen floor and it’s happening. But it’s like when we have people in our home, I didn’t feel comfortable being a sexual being at all. And in not only just having sex, but also to be cautious about the clothes that I wore. I felt like I couldn’t feel comfortable with having like other men in the house and me wearing certain things.

J: [01:03:19] I also felt weird, and I didn’t realize that this was a thing until it was happening, but I felt weird if let’s say the room was empty and like Oly and I just start kissing. And he, you know, puts his hand on my butt or something and then somebody walks in. To me it wasn’t like, they just need to mind their own business, they can go back in the room or whatever. To me it was like, I need to stop because I felt weird about somebody viewing me in a sexually vulnerable state.

EW: [01:03:49] Yeah.

J: [01:03:49] Not only because I felt weird about it, but too I think it goes again off of like being preyed upon. Not to say that I didn’t completely trust the people that I was living with. But I also didn’t want to expose myself. Like I’m only trying to expose myself in that vulnerable way to my husband, and that’s not something I wanted to have witnessed by another man in my home. So to me it was something I just kind of had to shut off a lot in the past year. We’re just getting back to having the house to ourselves again. I think that’ll be really exciting. But it’s been a challenging year of like, okay take the opportunity while we have it. But it’s also been about finding this, you know, stroke of luck where I feel well, our work schedules are matching up, and like we’re both on that same plane. So while we have a very healthy perspective and a very healthy like, just like a really healthy experience when we do have sex, it just has not been that frequent.

J: [01:04:56] I think they’re still coming to terms with that too. Just being like in each other’s lives as long as we have been too. Like you’re so comfortable with the person that there are sometimes where I’m like, oh shit we’re kind of just hanging out. Like I want it to be something that feels like it’s not just— I’m like hanging out with a best friend. Like no no no. Like this is my husband. This is my sexual partner. This is the person I can flirt with. I can do whatever I want and sometimes I can lose sight of that. But I think it’s been a year of me really doing some deep diving about what my thoughts are about sex. And removing some of my negative thoughts surrounding it. And then also just coming to terms with the current state of my body and how to learn how to make the best of it. Because I think for people with chronic illnesses or disabilities you do have to learn how to take a situation, own it, make it your own, adapt. And I’m learning how to adapt and find ways to still have pleasure. Like now at a certain point I was like, I just need more pillows. I need a pillow tucked under here and I need a pillow tucked under here. And like I’m good. You know? It’s sometimes about just making those little changes that might lead to me being more comfortable.

J: [01:06:17] Something from my past I still carry with me, and I feel it every single time I approach any sensual encounter, because most sensual encounters have to do with kissing. And my first kiss was not great. And that also set the tone. Like that was my first physical interaction with another person like that. So that was really unfortunate for me. My first kiss essentially was, as I’m sure you remember, you and I staying at our friend’s house, which was a girl. She had a younger brother that everyone was just encouraging me to date. And I really wasn’t digging this person. But like everyone just kept saying like, ah nah you should. I think he thinks that you’re really cute blah blah blah. Like you guys will do great.

J: [01:07:02] So I decided sure. Hell, let’s let’s try it out. And stayed at our friend’s house. I remember waking up in the morning getting a bowl of Cheerios and going into one of the side rooms where then this boy that I was dating, it could have even been for days prior, tops.

EW: [01:07:22] Yeah. I remember that you guys just got together. Just.

J: [01:07:26] Like “got together” in quotations because like, what did that even back then.

EW: [01:07:31] Yeah.

J: [01:07:32] Exactly. It hardly meant anything at all. But I was standing in this room and he approached me. And I think, you know, the intention was to kind of like playfully toss me onto the bed or whatever. But hell I’m 12, 13, I’m pretty sure 13. So at the time kind of being like pushed onto the bed like that, I was not a sensual enough person to be like wow, sexy he’s taking charge. Like instead I was like, what is happening. So he kind of like playfully pushes me on the bed, gets on top of me, and starts trying to shove his tongue down my throat. But the first thing that happened since he was being so aggressive is that our teeth clacked together. And it hurt. And I was immediately mad because I was like, why are you doing this? Like you can’t even make this happen in like, I don’t know, a more comfortable way? Like you’re just going for it. And so, teeth hit first and then I just start getting sloppy tongue. And just—.

EW: [01:08:29] Gross.

J: [01:08:29] Yeah. So right away I was like, this is horrible. I was literally grossed out the whole time. And all that to say after it ended, I think he seemed like kind of like proud of himself. Like, yeah I did it. And for me I just felt dirty. And I wanted nothing to do with him. And I went home and I cried. And I cried for days on and off honestly. I remember sobbing, I think one of your friends was over, and I ended up in your room, in your bed sobbing. I was so destroyed that my first kiss, my like, what I had really— not fantasized about, but I really thought that I would have a more positive story about that. I pictured it happening with other people and the fact that it happened with that person in that way, it just felt so cruel.

J: [01:09:16] And it really stayed in my brain to the fact where a couple years later when I dated one of my exes, kind of one of my first real boyfriends though too, when he first kissed me— and again, very sweet human, this was completely consensual, it wasn’t like I felt forced, he was not aggressive — but he kissed me, really gently he kissed me with tongue, and immediately I went back to that place with my first kiss and with his tongue touching mine, I thought of that guy and I was immediately grossed out again. And the person that I was with, sensed that and kind of pulled away and was like, oh my god are you okay? And I just started crying immediately because I didn’t realize that that was still with me as prominent as it was. So I just ended up breaking down and being like I didn’t even think I’d have to talk about this again. But I really did not enjoy my first kiss. It felt forced and that’s now what I think about when I kiss apparently. I just get that replay in my head of that interaction. So that I still feel is present with me today.

J: [01:10:25] Even still when I kiss somebody, rather my husband, I’m not kissing anybody else, but when I kiss my husband even, I still have that like initial recoil of being like ugh. And then again have to like break down my own walls and barriers to be like, no this is a completely safe space. You’re completely fine. You don’t have to revisit that. But that is something else that shaped how I felt about sensuality, sex, and again kind of made me take another step back. Like where if I think that had been more positive, I probably would have taken a step forward. But again it was a step back.

EW: [01:11:05] Yeah. I remember that. That entire— I remember that day, I remember that experience, at least like witnessing it. I didn’t realize that it was as slimy. I think if I had known that I probably would have like, I don’t know, talked to the older brothers and been like, hey that was not cool. But yeah, and people just didn’t make a big deal about it. And I remember you being upset too. But I don’t recall like really understanding like the gravity of why.

J: [01:11:40] Yeah I felt like something was stolen from me quite honestly. But it was unfortunate because it wasn’t so literal. Like we were dating and I don’t think that I would have not kissed him at some point, you know? But it was just the manner that it happened, the fact that I was so off guard, there were just so many things about it where I was like, why. Like why did this have to be my first experience. So yeah that definitely shaped a lot for me too. And again these fears have just been about like confronting my demons. Like I’m so down to kick some of these really just bad habits that I’ve formed over time. Both mentally and physically. And I’ve been really excited about the work that I’ve done in these past few years. So if anything I’m just more optimistic than ever about things being a lot more positive, a lot more free. I do feel like I’ve taken a bit more ownership and empowerment over sexuality. But again as we just spoke, like there’s still sometimes where you’re battling with it in the moment right before it happens.

EW: [01:12:47] Yeah. My last question is like, what does sexual liberation mean to you?

J: [01:12:52] Personally, sexual liberation would mean no inhibitions. And I’m not there yet. It’s what I’m working on as I said. But that to me would be my liberation. To just feel like no hesitation, I can make the first approach, I can call the shots. Because there are certainly times too where I’ll kind of have this quick little nudge in me that’s like, hey go up to him and do this. Like just come on to him. Do something like really crazy that’ll make him kind of shocked. And still I’ll kind of stop myself and be like, no don’t don’t do that. Like that’s really forward. Who gives a fuck if it’s forward! You married this person this is exactly what he wants. Like, he wants you to touch his penis just do it. He doesn’t care in what mode that it happens, like just do it. It will thrill him.

J: [01:13:43] So for me it’s like it’s about that. Like I have realized that I am a very like sexual and strong person in that regard. Like as I said, regardless of whether it’s because of physical reasons or not, after I have sex I want more sex. And all I want is to be able to reside in that flow without inhibition, without getting in my own way. And I think that’s what it means for me personally. Granted for other people and their different backgrounds it can mean something tremendously different, but to me it’s just no inhibitions being— no inhibitions no shame.

EW: [01:14:19] Yeah.

J: [01:14:20] Yeah. And that is my goal.

EW: [01:14:23] That’s beautiful.

J: [01:14:25] Yay.

EW: [01:14:25] I’m so glad that we had this conversation. Thank you for being so open and vulnerable and sharing all this stuff. A lot of this stuff, I didn’t know. And a lot of it should— surprised me because I was like, wow we are— we were way more similar than I thought. You know? And I just wonder, like it’s kind of similar to the feelings that I had after I interviewed Mommy. Like, what would my own sexual experience have been like, what would your own sexual experience have been like if we both recognized that we were experiencing similar things. Or that we had similar issues or similar hangups or responses. You know?

J: [01:15:08] Right. Yeah. If we only knew. We were not alone. As you said I didn’t really know that we had buried some of those similarities also. So that’s kind of a trip. But I think we have parallels and we’re bound to, being how we were both raised. But I think ultimately it’s already a bit of a victory if you think about why we’re having this conversation. And the fact that you have this business that is just so empowering to so many people and that to me is a sign that, I mean you especially, but like we came out of this pretty okay. You know?

J: [01:15:49] It could have been a rough path in the meantime but I think that there are a lot of people who are living still in a lot deeper of shame on a daily basis and I think at the very least we’re open enough to want to start a dialogue about it and in that I think just confront some of this stuff head on which I think is really really powerful.

EW: [01:16:09] Yeah. Thank you.

J: [01:16:10] Of course. Thank you for having me.

EW: [01:16:13] It’s so weird like having this conversation with you. Like I’m listening to your sex life and I’m— there’s still this part of me that sees you as my baby sister. You know?

J: [01:16:23] Right. Totally. Which must be bizarre.

EW: [01:16:25] Yeah I’m just— well it’s not bizarre it’s just like, I don’t know. It’s just one of those things that just never goes away. You know?

J: [01:16:30] Yeah.

EW: [01:16:30] I’m just like this is my little sister and here we are. We’re talking about sex. Aw!

J: [01:16:34] Still a little baby Jarebear all grown up talking about sex.

EW: [01:16:42] I know but this is good and thanks. Thanks for sharing all that.

J: [01:16:46] Thanks again for having me. This was really exciting.


EW: [01:16:57] The Sexually Liberated Woman is produced, edited and designed by me, Ev’Yan Whitney. With editing help by Justine McClellan and community support from each one of my very special patrons on Patreon.

If you love The Sexually Liberated Woman, I’d love it if you left me a review on Apple podcasts. And if you want to help sustain The Sexually Liberated Woman, go to patreon.com/SLWpodcast and become a patron. I would love that too.

As for me, you can find me on my website evyanwhitney.com where you can subscribe to my newsletter and learn more about my work as a sexuality doula. I’m also on Instagram @evyan.whitney. Thank you so much for being here and I’ll see you in the next episode.